Saturday, December 30, 2006
The Lord Of The Rings 5th Anniversary, Part 3 - The Return of the King
By George Merchan, Andrew Clarke and Charlie Brigden
Well, it's not Christmas Eve as promised, but the festive period does tend to overwhelm people. At least that's my excuse. In any case, we're back with the final installment of our epic discussion, taking in The Return of the King, a film some people view as the chapter that stumbled. Do we agree? Let's find out.
Charlie: Is Christmas eve a bit too soon?
Andrew: Tomorrow evening: office xmas party
Friday: piss up with mates
Saturday: actually buying the presents
Xmas eve: making lunch for my parents.
Still - we can give it a go.
Charlie: You haven't bought presents yet?
George: Let's give it a shot. If we make it, we make it. If not, well at least we can gun for before the new year.
Andrew: I did look for presents, but my mum wants a Nintendo DS (of all things) and everywhere is sold out. Also I'm buying sausages for my dad so I've got to get them at the last minute.
George: The movie? Anyone?
Andrew: You know what the opening scene in this movie is? It's shit.
Charlie: No it isn't. I don't think it should have opened the movie though.
George: It's VERY goofy and features one of the worst bits of sfx in the entire trilogy. It gets better the instant Smeagol and Deagol start fighting and even better when PJ shows us BrundleGollum. I don't think it's total shit either, but I don't think it should've started the film at all.
Andrew: OK, so the first scene of ROTK, after the epic battles that introduced the first films, starts with a close-up of a worm on a hook. It is a flash back to when Smeagol first finds the Ring and slowly starts turning into Gollum. Him and his brother, Deagol, are fishing, they find the ring, they fight over it and Smeagol wins by killing his brother. It was originally meant to be in TTT during the dead marshes, when Frodo calls him Smeagol and he, for the first time in centuries, remembers his humanity. They cut it out for time reasons and because it took focus away from Frodo. Hindsight's a bugger isn't it? Looking back that would have been the perfect place for it.
As it is, it is too twee and too cheesy, being filmed in what feels like soft focus, feeling almost like a dream of happy times that slowly turns into a nightmare. I don't like it personally, over which we can disagree, I guess, but crucially it is tonally inconsistent with everything else going on and the introductions to films are all about setting up tone, making this a major mis-step. The tone is fair enough for a flash back, but not an opening. Every time I start watching this film I think 'oh yeah, it starts like this' - so completely does it not fit that I blank it out. It's EE material, through and through, and should have been dropped from the theatricals, especially considering that they dropped the death of Saruman, leading to all sorts of clunky editing to set up that glowy ball getting into the heroes' hands.
We have to remember that PJ and co were around five years into this project when they were finishing ROTK. They were knackered and it's things like this that show that up. Perspective had been lost, they were too 'inside' the project to see clearly. The decision to start with this scene just because it would be a bit unexpected doesn't sound like the idea of a sober head.
I also think the film has quite a few of these mis-steps, giving us a hint of just how close this most epic of films came to going completely off the rails.
The only saving grace of this first scene is the last shot, in which Smeagol's cloudy dull eyes blink and turn into Gollum's cruel, shrewd eyes, so proving once again that a CGI Gollum beats the shit out of any practical make-up Smeagol.
George: Mine (Mum. DS Lite) does too. The pink one. So funny. Get her Brain Age, she'll love it. Tetris too.
"Very goofy."
ROTK is an odd fellow mixed with both the greatest and the worst moments in the whole trilogy, and I think this is mainly due to what Andrew points out above. It's the culmination of YEARS and YEARS of work, and not to mention, all the pressure in the world is on the shoulders of this team to deliver something even grander than TTT (which was really pretty damn grand). I think PJ succeeds during the most crucial of moments that needed to be GREAT. And they were. Which is really what makes this film the great one that it is, albeit a flawed one. You can have a great but flawed film, right?
I'm, of course, talking about the TE here because ROTK is the only one of the three that I feel doesn't benefit from the EEs.
(Editor's Note: Tetris is awesome.)
Andrew: It's true, it's all true - when the EE isn't giving us pointless crap it is actively undermining the dramatic tension! The major villain here is the scene added after the paths of the dead (and we shall ignore the low comedy of Gimli while on the paths, or the truly bizarre avalanche of skulls just after they meet with the deadites) where Aragorn and the deadites attack the pirate ships. By showing the army of the dead here, almost all the drama and certainly all the surprise is taken out of the scene when they finally arrive on Pelennor fields to save the day from certain defeat. We've seen the army before, we know what they can do, so that most crucial of scenes is slightly lessened. Bad EE, bad.
And the real problem is that the TE doesn't set it up too well either, leaving us hanging in the paths of the dead and then simply ignoring Aragorn until he pops up almost an hour later.
All we would need is that extra scene up to the point just before the army of the dead attack the pirates (I think a pirate says 'You and who's army?'), but not actually showing the army. This sets up the idea that something cool as shit is coming, but you are left waiting to find out what, making the arrival at Pelennor all the more sweet.
A simple solution, completely missed. ROTK is a film made on the tenth cup of coffee.
Also the first hour is really boring, consisting of nothing but getting all the characters into the right place.
George: I hear you. But I actually love love love the skull avalanche because, though it looks a little odd (the combo of miniature, CGI, and mattes), it's cool as shit and leads to the moment of the three outside seeing the approaching Corsair ships, which a.) connects back to the dialogue Gandalf says to Aragorn - "Look to the black ships", b.) is one of the few great character additions to Aragorn's already lofty character and one of the few great moments in this particular EE period, and b.) does exactly what you were getting at regarding the Army of the Dead... it sets it up properly, leaves you hanging on the King of the Dead's "We fight", and then transitions wonderfully to the mounting threat in front of Minas Tirith. THAT is the proper resolution to that subplot, and it genuinely works. Fucking EE kills it with the forced PJ and co. cameos on the Corsair ship though, like you mention. Bad EE indeed.
First hour? I'm actually having a tough time remembering what major moments of setup happen then. The EE obviously has the Voice of Saruman sequence, which for the most part, I think works. I like it and wish it could've gone into the TE. It's a nice counterpoint to Theoden's eventual death as well as Gandalf's regret in having sent Frodo. What else, not from the EEs? The beacons? Was that in the first hour? I think that's a great addition that wasn't in the book. Helps show how fucking big and mountainy Middle Earth is. Wonderful rendition of the Gondor theme (my favorite of the trilogy) as well. Uh... help me out here. What doesn't work for you so that I can tell you exactly why it works?
Andrew: The beacons being lit is the sign that the film is kicking in to gear. Before that we have celebrations over Helm's Deep, everyone arguing over what they should do, Pippin dicking around with the Palantir, so setting up him and Gandalf going to Minas Tirith, Arwen faffing on about whether to stay or leave. It's all useful, but it is all set up. It all pays off in the second half - in fact it feels like there's a good 90 minutes of nothing but emotionally resonant pay off - so it is good to have it but, again, it is a slog. You have to dig your heels in and prepare yourself for a hefty amount of watching before you get to the feeling.
The battle of Pelennor Fields is filled with chess imagery and, like a chess match, the film starts slowly and quietly - but that start is only really worth it for what it allows later. Compare with with FOTR where those Shire scenes are some of the most enjoyable of the entire trilogy.
And yes, I'll go for the 'We fight' line as the perfect spot to end that scene. I'm glad our massive cinematic minds got that sorted. Someone e-mail PJ, in readiness for the 10th anniversary quadruple dip.
George: Would it be too ridiculously obvious to point out Gandalf's line, "The board is set, the pieces are moving" at this point? Yes? Fine.
I personally like the setup a lot more here in ROTK than I do in FOTR. Why? I'm not sure. It's not so much that I don't like the setup in FOTR, but I guess, knowing that it's a trilogy that's very contingent on what happens from one film to the next (unlike other trilogies that are much more self-contained) I never really felt the stakes in FOTR. TTT certainly. But by the time you get to ROTK, the ante feels like it's been raised exponentially. And I think that has to do a lot with the fact that, essentially, TTT is this giant 3 hour setup for ROTK. I think you yourself mentioned at one point that the story could conceivably go straight into ROTK from FOTR (or something to that effect). Of course, I'm not taking into account the juicy stuff like character development and all that shit just yet. But I guess my point is that, when ROTK begins (when we see Frodo and Sam, not fucking Sm/Deagol), there's very much an enhanced sense of foreboding, dread, melancholy, edge of the knife type shit. And I guess that's just this inordinate amount of setup that's beginning to burst at the seams. And, like you mention again, the film ends with such emotionally charged resolutions which were made as such because of this setup. This is starting to remind me of Halloween but on the most epic of scales.
Times you lose this mounting tension:
- When Gandalf and Pippen go off on their merry adventure to Minas Tirith. This isn't a bad thing. I personally feel Gandalf and Pippen's arc is one of the most emotionally satisfying in the whole series.
- Paths of the Dead... is this the Lothlorien of ROTK?
Andrew: I guess Charlie's too busy playing with his pink DS to join in with this debate.
My vote for Best Boring Bit is actually when the Rohan lot fuck about for a bit in that high camp.
George: Okay yeah, that's the Lothlorien bit. Favorite EE moment there... Eomer: "War is the province of men."
Andrew: Vote for Most Embarrassing Bit is when Agent Smith gives Aragorn his big sword.
George: LOL. Poor Elrond Hubbard. I own that sword btw. Cuz, like, I haven't mentioned that a thousand times before already.
Andrew: Vote for the Let's Make King Kong Three Hours Long Award For CGI Blindness goes to Legolas on the elephant.
"Terrible."
George: I still say it's better than him surfing the fucking shield in TTT. And I have to admit, it's a cute joke to end his and Gimli's orc killing rivalry. And if people cheer, that automatically makes the scene worthwhile, no? Maybe?
Okay, I'm stopping until Charlie gets done playing Nintendogs.
Charlie: What, you don't have jobs? I'm back now.
I like the setup. I think it works pretty well, and I like a lot of the scenes, especially Arwen's vision. That's a great scene. Pippin's departure is very sad, and has some great scoring, but the scene with the Palantir is TERRIBLE. I always get embarrassed while watching it, and it's especially bad because of the slow motion mixed with the fast-tempo Mordor theme.
I absolutely love the scene with Elrond giving Anduril to Aragorn. Great music, great moment. This is the moment where the worm is turning so to speak, where people are putting faith in those who did not receive it previously.
The camp bit... yeah, it's a bit dull, although I'm a big fan of tense "how are we going to survive?" dialogue scenes that don't really go anywhere. The beacons scene that George mentioned is spectacular. Just wonderful, and a rousing moment.
I also love the Paths of the Dead. And I think it works because you're so engrossed in the rest of the story, you're not saying "Where's Aragorn?" but, you finally say "OMG Aragorn!" when he turns up. I HATE HATE HATE the EE scene with the Pirates. It's fucking awful. The EE of this movie SUCKS, the Mouth of Sauron aside.
I also love the Legolas/Mumakil scene.
I think it does mis-step occasionally, but when it doesn't, it's the most emotionally satisfying film of the trilogy. Also, those mis-steps are "slightly boring walking bit" mis-steps as opposed to "is that really the fucking turn?" type mis-steps.
Andrew: OK, Charlie, what about Eomer? Fantasy is a tricky thing to pull of for an actor, as you are talking some really silly stuff, are dealing with very heightened emotions and are moving through a very stylised world - being too naturalistic or 'modern' will make you stick out like a sore thumb when you're in a scene opposite a dragon. Yet you need to have the audience understand the very human emotions underneath all the enchanted armour. Lots of people got in right in these movies. Ian McKellen, for example, who is a big god.
But if you get it wrong you end up like Eomer, who mostly furrows his brow, lowers his voice to make him seem manly and epic and intones his lines with an absolute and ponderous seriousness. It's like a school production of Shakespeare, and rubbish.
Are there any other actors who are, basically, a bit gash?
Charlie: I thought Karl Urban was pretty damn good as furrowing norseman Eomer. I also LOVE seriousness. It's what I miss in movies nowadays.
George: Funny, I would never call Urban's performance bad. Maybe because I've seen him in Xena, I don't know. Most of his performances in the major films we've seen him in have been similar to this. I'd call it "intense", and for the most part, I think he does it well. I think you need an actor to hit that type of seriousness in a film like this, one that spans from the goofiest of goofy to the most grave of situations. And every character fits well somewhere within that spectrum.
Also, I thought we all had hard-ons for Urban. Maybe? Wait until Pathfinder is released?
Okay, speaking of Eomer reminds me of this... the Houses of Healing scene... Liv Tyler: as good as her pops in the vocal department? Or should she just shut her yap and look hot? I like the idea of the scene but I hate the way it was executed, mainly because her vocals stick out like a sore thumb in the film's whole musical cannon.
Andrew: I don't think it actually achieves 'serious', only uses 'seriosity' in a desperate attempt to compensate for the perceived silliness of the text. In fact LOTR's political machinations are at least as well drawn as in most 'modern day' thrillers. Either that or it is the sign of someone who has no idea how to pitch the tone and just goes for standard portentous intoning. He glares well but, seriously, he's a rare example in the LOTR films of cliched Bad Fantasy Acting.
On to Arwen, though. I don't really have anything good to say about any of the songs in these films unless they are sung by Hobbits. They are just variations of that slightly arabic, slightly celtic female wailing that has been grossly over-used in these kinds of epics for at least half a decade. Slightly mythical, slightly melancholy? Let's use Enya! It's heritage celtic music for tourists and about as believable as 'ye olde tea shoppe' signs. Thankfully they are, by design, easy to ignore and mostly kept to the closing credits. They don't push my emotional buttons at all.
Charlie: Once again, I disagree. I think all three of the end title songs are amazing, especially "Into The West." I think the Enya song is maybe the least in terms of emotional relationship to the film, but it's still a beautiful song, and she makes up for it with the Aniron deal, which is an amazing piece.
Hell, I love "Into The West" so much I had it played at my mother's funeral. It speaks to me that much.
But this leads into an interesting debate - what music would you have had instead? I remember reading a lot of shit artists like Belle and Sebastian saying they hated the LOTR music, but no answers as to what they'd replace it with.
George: Yeah, I'm with Charlie about the end credit songs. They're lovely, especially "Into the West". But the Liv Tyler song isn't during the credits, it's in a somewhat big sequence of the EE. It's yet another element of the ROTK EE that screams "this EE is NOT for the fans, but for the filmmakers" (I'm also referring to the cameos on the Corsair ships or like the brief shot of Howard Shore at Edoras). Because honestly, there's no reason for Liv Tyler to be featured singing a song within the film's narrative. There's an odd meta disconnect there. I guess you could argue that it's got to do with Aragorn or some shit, but there's nothing in the text of ROTK (or the EE) that really supports that.
Charlie: Definitely. ROTK's EE is "Let's get everyone in front of the camera" time, and let Liv sing because Eowyn sang in the TTT EE. Cause you wouldn't want those two to get catty. Oh no. Especially if they got catty in some kind of ring. And accidentally spilled baby oil on each other.
George: LOL
Andrew: Belle and Sebastian shit? Oh dear, Charlie, I think we might be running in to an irreconcilable split in our musical tastes here. Do you still like Tool?
Charlie: Very much so.
"A bit rubbish."
Andrew: Those songs are on the end credits just so New Line could release a video on VH1 to market the film. They are the epic equivalent of 'Hero' at the end of Spider-Man. They are not a real part of the movie, and all of them have that 'meta' thing George was talking about. We're into PR as soon as the breathy women start bleating and that's me officially out of the movie. It's the sign to run to the loo.
How about Bilbo singing 'the road goes ever on and on' a capella at the end of FOTR? A Merry and Pippin jig at the end of TTT? Or just a re-working of the main themes a la Star Wars? It worked well enough for that film.
But maybe we should move on from an argument that will only end in me and Charlie fighting, in a ring, covered in baby oil.
Let's stick with Elves. They're a bit rubbish in these movies. They are supposed to be semi-divine spirit entities, both in this world and the next, very much magical creatures who belong to an older, more magical and mythical time. They sense, with the passing of the third age, that their time is passing and the time of men and non-magic is coming, which is why they spend their time talking about leaving middle earth for good and 'going to the west'. The story is very much about the passing of one age into another - as shown by the Argonath back in FOTR, signfying that they have now passed in to the lands of men and from then on the story becomes much more about, well, men.
Now the film does the very best it can to recount 3,000 years of history, but it's focus is ultimately on Frodo and Aragorn, and the physical journeys they go on, so there's only so much it can do. It is hard enough for a film to express something as abstract as what an Elf is supposed to represent, but almost impossible for a film that spends most of it's time rolling around in the mud. The Elves' time is over, and they are leaving the land and that means that, basically, they aren't around to be filmed. The great sadness of the Elves is that this was their land and now they are giving up being involved with its dealings to hand it over to others or, perhaps (and here's the drama) lessers.
PJ tried his best (with FOTR EE scenes of Frodo and Sam seeing Elves passing through their lands or of Arwen's introduction as a shining, mystical being), but ultimately the Elves come over as rather ineffective hippy communes, flapping about in gauze and soft focus, speaking slowly with glazed eyes like LSD casualties.
What is so fascinating about Tolkien's Elves really doesn't come over in the movies for me, leaving them pointless and flappy around the edges of the film. The choice to focus on the immediacy of the main story is great for the movie but something had to be the loser, and I feel it was the Elves. They simply have nothing to do except selfsihly piss off to a retirement village.
This is best shown (referring back to a good point in the TTT chat) that we'd all rather Aragorn copped off with Eowyn instead of Arwen.
The Elves simply don't have anything to do.
Charlie: Exactly. And the Arwen thing comes forward again where we find out "her fate is tied to the ring." How, exactly? Does she have some sort of spiritual connection to it? Is she allergic to white gold? What's the deal here?
It's like the bit where Elrond says "The light of the valar is leaving you" or some such. It's not happening to him then, so does it just happen when someone says they're staying? It's all a bit vague, and thus, suffers.
George: This part still bothers me so much, mainly because I just can't understand why the filmmakers thought this was a viable motivational push for Aragorn. He doesn't need further motivation to do what he's got to do. And what's more, it undermines his original, more noble intentions, which, I guess, were to simply do what's right for the Fellowship, Rohan, Gondor, and ultimately Frodo... that line he says to Frodo in FOTR ("I would've followed you into the very fires of Mordor.") suddenly loses its potency. With this it suddenly becomes, "Oh snap! I gots to kick ass or my bitch'll die! C'mon let's go, let's go!"
Andrew: I don't really know what they're on about, and I've read The Silmarillion.
George: A tip of the hat to you, sir.
Andrew: More of a confession than a boast, honest.
Charlie: I got through two chapters of The Silmarillion. I bow to your endurance skills.
Andrew: It's telling that the poignancy of The Grey Havens and all that going to the west = dying stuff, so important to the Elves, all comes from that speech Gandalf gives Pippin (about travelling to that far land and silvered glass and all that) while they're waiting to get clobbered by super trolls.
George: Very true. That's a lovely lovely scene, btw. Gets me every time.
Charlie: The Grey Havens is one of my top five "never fail to be a blubbering mess after" scenes. I'm just always in complete disarray after it. Even while listening to the track on the CD.
Andrew: Before we get too deep onto the endings though, how about all that stuff from (roughly) when the beacons are lit to when Frodo and Sam are picked up on the Volcano-side by the Eagles?
"Hard not to laugh."
Charlie: Talking about the stuff in the middle is a good idea. Let's see.
As George said before, the lighting of the beacons is a wonderful sequence, and really kicks the story into third gear. Urgency = good.
I must pay tribute to Gandalf and Pippen's arrival at Minas Tirith. It's a breathtaking scene, and very well edited, even if it doesn't always look that real.
The Shelob scenes are pretty great, both as horror and as a cheer moment for Sam. My only issue really is with how Shelob looks. I guess they gave her personality, and design-wise, she's great, I just think that they made her look a bit less like a real spider and more like the generic fantasy spiders we're used to seeing. I always thought they might have gone pretty realistic with her, but with her big head and quadruple-jaws, it just makes it more like a caricature of a scary spider than a big scary spider.
Andrew: Shelob never did it for me, and a huge amount is made of her. Maybe she was a bit too fleshy when i get scared of that un-natural chitin look some spiders have. I won't make a big deal out of it, and shall put it down only to unbelievably-great-moment exhaustion by the time she pops up.
Charlie: Nonetheless, some of those scenes are great and I applaud WETA actually making her move like a real spider, as opposed to what we usually see in films. The movement really sells the horror of the scene, for example the shot where Frodo is caught in the web and we see the silhoutte of her behind him, and also in the later scenes outside, the first of which (where she comes out of that hole leg-first) is an absolutely nightmarish shot for those of us who are not fond of our eight-legged compatriots. That said, I find it hard not to laugh when Frodo does his foaming at the mouth.
The siege on Minas Tirith is still astonishing, and never gets boring. My favourite bit is where the Nazgul get involved, and there's one shot of the Witch-King as he grabs a few soldiers and flies off, and you follow them for ages as he drops them and they hit the buildings.
Andrew: Of the entire hour of the Gondor siege you bring that shot up, Charlie? Excellent! I'm glad I'm not the only one who ingores the massive battle scene in order to see if those little soldiers go splat. We should probably find out if anyone doesn't do this.
Charlie: Speaking of the Witch-King, the scene where he's introduced is really great, through Gandalf talking to Pippin. It's another teaser to the whole battle, and there's a great inflection in Gandalf's voice where he says 'He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop,' which sounds halfway between disgust and fright.
The arrival of the Rohirrim is also great. That speech by Theoden is immensely powerful, and it makes you want to fight. Their charge also features an amazing rendering of the Rohan theme. And of course, the arrival of Aragorn and co is a great cheer moment, something this film is full of. I watched it with a theater full of Tolkienites, and there were cheers all the time. It was a great experience.
Eowyn's fight with the Witch-King is another. When she cuts off the fell beast's head, you're like "Oh snap!" which then turns to go "Oh shit!" as he unfurls his gigantic +4 mace. It takes a bit of opportunity with Merry stabbing him in the back, but it leads to one of my favourite bits.
"You fool! No man can kill me. Die now!"
"I am NO MAN."
And then he dies. Rock.
This is where it goes straight into fifth gear for me. There's that utterly damn heroic shot of Aragorn just nailing orcs left right and centre, and then Legolas taking down the Mumakil, and once the battle is over, we go into that great scene in the council chambers, which again combines fun dialogue with utterly reckless do-or-die derring, i.e. "Certainty of death! Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?"
"For Frodo."
On the subject of the EE, while it's mostly terrible, I do love the Mouth of Sauron scene. It's so damn creepy, and it gives a bit of extra weight to the scenes that follow. Speaking of which, Aragorn's speech is greatness. It's not the speech of a battle-hardened man who has given thousands of heroic inspiring speeches ala Theoden, but someone who realizes now his true calling and that if they're going to be able to do anything to stop this world being fucked up, he's going to have to do his bit, verbally. And he does.
This follows greatly into the next sequence, directly after the "I can't carry the ring..." bit which I'll go into after, where Sauron calls Aragorn out. He walks out, and then turns back, giving us a look almost identical to the look Isildur gave Elrond all those years ago. Then he gives a sad smile, and utters those legendary words - "For Frodo" - before running on his own towards a legion of Orcs. That, at least for me, is Aragorn's defining moment, and where he takes on the true mantle of the king. It's the third in the trilogy of scenes where he runs into the enemy facing seemingly insurpassable odds (Parth Galen, Forth Eorlingas), and it's where he truly shows his worth and his confidence to be King.
Again, with that scene, it shows that the trilogy is all about friendship, and the sacrifice based on friendship that we have to take. We see earlier Frodo abandon Sam for Gollum, breaking that bond, and then Frodo being betrayed by Gollum, with the character only feeling at a sense of relative peace once they are reunited, which again comes to prominence when they are on the side of the mountain, and Sam shows the true roots of heroism shows not of how strong you are, or how handy you are with a sword, but how you can pull that inspiration from within you and do what you think you cannot do for a selfless cause.
George: The siege on Minas Tirith (featuring that FANTASTIC rendition of the Nazgul theme - when they swoop in on the highest level of the city) and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields (that's really the climax for the Rohirrim, and man, can you feel it both in Shore's music and in Jackson's visuals) are still such truly incredible action sequences that have set the bar for truly engaging action spectacle. It's not always the most realistic looking stuff, but it's always fucking cool as shit, it's always involving, and it's ultimately still always seeded in character.
The Mumakil? Good Lord. Objectivity is kind of out the window at this point, I'm sorry. But fuck, I really don't think we've seen a more energetic, creative, and awe-spiring marriage of CGI and live action in a major film yet since maybe, well, since maybe PJ's King Kong and the sequence atop the Empire State Building.
The Mouth of Sauron scene is nice. It is creepy and it does add another nice little layer to the finale. I just don't like the setup for it, because it kills that one musical cue with Sam running up the tower to rescue Frodo.
We've sort of ignored Denethor. I think he gets on people's nerves since his scenes become a bit silly (especially in the EE), but fucking hell, I love 'em. I think John Noble's performance is a great piece of melodrama. His death is still hilarious.
Andrew: I'm pretty much a fan of this whole middle section. It is glorious and what really shows it's worth is that we are getting maximum scale shots for a good hour or so, of an entire city under siege by 100,000 Orcs, and yet it never gets dull. Usually you have to trade sepctacle for intimacy - you can show an entire world now, but it's the close up of the face that remains the most interesting. If you show an entire city, usually you lose the sense of what it is like on one street - at the human level - only leaving a sense of impressiveness - which can only really last maybe ten minutes before reducing down to boredom. The bigger it is, usually, the vaguer it is. Not here.
His film has done so much work with the actual humans scurrying around that you never loose that sense of emotion or relatability, thus keeping a strong connection between close up widest of wide shots. You know where they are, and you know what they are feeling, even when you are seeing thousands of them.
What that all means is that zoom out from, say, one fight to dozens of men getting wiped out in a second by a nazgul, keeps it's jarring 'fuck me!' effect even after an hour of it. I still get that feeling of the scale of the threat all the way through the battle.
This effect probably has it's roots all the way back in FOTR - it's a story that escalates from one Hobbit and a ring to an entire world at war - so thinking back to, for example, that scene in the wheat field when Sam and Frodo first start their journey, and suddenly zoom forwards to 100,000 Orcs and I still get the idea that this is impossible, that they simply couldn't show something so big on screen.
That I think it is impossible to make shows how believable they have made this fantasy world, and that's why this great middle chunk of ROTK is so great.
Charlie: You're right, Denethor's death is absolutely hilarious. I love the concept for that. "Okay, we're going to have a flaming Denethor jump off the edge of the city and then pull down and back across the entirety of the Pelennor Fields."
Noble's performance is very good, too. I like his style. It's proper melodramatic emo.
Andrew: OK, the friendship thing. I'm afraid I find the 'i can't carry the ring, but i can carry you' line very funny, which is a shame as it's a major beat in the climax that I miss out on. I'm afraid the friendship stuff really doesn't get to me, with me mostly finding it cheesy and unconvincing.
Far more emotional to me is the shot of Frodo face as he is being carried away from Mount Doom. Now that gets to me. This has far more to do with overcoming personal, internal conflicts and genuinely finding peace. The ring is the catalyst for this is Frodo and Gollum, but Aragorn's rise to accepting who he truly is, or Theoden's final acceptance that he has been a worthy king (or loads of other examples), are just as powerful.
What's interesting is that the films contain both these things, and it mostly comes down to the sort of person watching it as to what is most important. Both of you have brought up the friendship and love aspects of these films, which I've mostly ignored or mocked gently, preferring to focus on the inner turmoil of the characters. Maybe you are just nicer people?
"Not gay."
Charlie: I think you're right. Not about being nicer people necessarily, but personally, I am a stupid romantic at heart. I like to take things at face value, and I'm a sucker for traditional romance, and the kind of friendship values LOTR throws up. I'm a huge fan of the romantic ideals that heroism in these kind of movies contains, the kind of swashbuckling laugh-in-the-face-of-death heroism that, when combined with honest emotional truth, is immensely powerful. I'm Frodo sitting in the woods reading the book, or more accurately, Luke Skywalker staring at the binary sunset. Awash with envy at those who would take on such selfless heroics and who would rescue the damsel in distress, but differing in the real-world realization that the only place we'll really find them - at least in this form - is on film or in print.
George: I am nicer. The friendship thing between Sam and Frodo really works best for me at the tail end of FOTR and in the entirety of ROTK (though Andrew, I admit that the "I'll carry you" line doesn't move me either... I don't laugh though, you evil man you), mainly because I relate to Sam as a person that's tried hard within my own friendships to help those with problems, addictions, relationship issues, etc, etc. I feel that frustration when the party you're helping doesn't listen to reason. But as such, you go through a whole lot of hell and back with that person, and at some point, you feel exactly like that moment when Frodo wakes up and Sam walks in last of the Fellowship and they give each other that little "I know" smirk. Sean Astin's look at that moment is truly heart-tugging because you finally see peace in the face of someone who's whole motivation was simply to be selfless and be as true a friend as possible. Shit, I'm not Sam. But I wish I could be that unselfish when it really counts. Like Charlie sorta says, film presents us with ideals that we can only hope to attain or strive for. Even if it is often completely futile.
And this sort of awkwardly leads me into the gay issue (which I know Charlie probably just rolled his eyes at) that I do want to briefly address. I can see why fans take offense to people calling Sam and Frodo's relationship a gay one without hint of irony. Not because it's dumb (which it is and it isn't) but because their friendship is one truly grounded in sincerity and good-nature, and one that's really an ideal for what we wish our own relationships could be like. We, being the nerds that we are, take offense to this because it feels like short-sightedness, ignorance, disrespect, or even an example of how modern culture's fucked up the way we view close knit masculine relationships. I used to get upset years ago when people would bring it up. Now, I laugh. And I like to look a little deeper to see that bit of subtext (intentional or not) because at some point, you've gotta examine film further than just what's presented to us on the surface.
Andrew: My theory for the 'bed scene' is not that it is gay, but that there is such a lack of sex in these movies that people look around to put some in somewhere, and that somewhere is the idea of 'friendship'. Arwen is the big romantic heroine and she's barely in the films. Both Arwen and Eowyn have relationships based on distance or innaccesibility. The idea of fantasy nerd as a scared-of-women virgin is quite strong here. No-one is getting any.
So the bed scene when all the Hobbits are finally brought together again is supposed to be a scene of innocent joy. That's the text of the scene.
Now, to be fair to the lolgayzors mob, the leaping about does feel like a mis-step (can anyone remember if this was a re-shoot?), as it's a throwback to what they were like at the beginning of the trilogy, back in The Shire, and the whole point is that they have changed and their innocence is, in part, gone.
A far better depiction of this comes when they back in the Green Dragon where they are sharing a drink and feeling distant from the rest of the Hobbits, busy being silly and oblivious to what just nearly happened. They are leaning on each other's friendship because of their shared experiences, but they know they can not go back to the way they were.
Honestly, I think it should have been cut or, at the very least shortened. We've already discussed these possibly bad decisions being made and ROTK being a film that very almost comes off the rails. I think this bit is a good example.
Charlie: I think it's a beautiful scene, mainly because like you say, it's a scene of innocent joy bound by friendship. That's how I take it. There are a couple of things that really make me smile in the scene, firstly Merry diving around on the bed while Pippen just sits around without a care in the world, and George's aforementioned moment with Sam and Frodo. It's a catharsis after everything that has happened, and as you said, it's a throwback to their origins, and them trying to reclaim that after everything that has happened. As is stated in the scenes after, you can't go back, but this is the one moment where the darkness has gone and the only thing that exists is the joy of friendship between people who love each other, however you want to take that.
I find that utterly beautiful.
Andrew: Well I believe the moment of catharsis comes as Frodo is carried back by the Eagle, and that trying to elevate 'innocent joy' to the exclusion all other human attributes is both creepy on the part of the film-maker (think Michael Jackson) and does a disservice to characters who have become increasingly three dimensional over the course of the movies.
At least we can agree that those who think it is gay need to get out more, or at least be made to visit certain internet porn sites?
George: Yep. I hear TheFagLife.com is quite excellent.
Like so much in these sets of films, the heart of it all has remained in the right place. Especially for ROTK, since like we've already talked about, it's often the most problematic of the three films, yet it achieves some of the richest highs of the entire bunch. For me personally, it doesn't get better than the third act of this film (and trilogy as a whole). It's an explosion of emotion both exciting and tearful. Wonderful editing, wonderful scoring... it's the section you can tell the most thought went into.
Andrew: As long as we agree the 3rd act ends with the eagles, sure.
I do think the bed hopping scene and the coronation could have been shortened into a montage with some rousing music playing over the top or a speech, like Sam's in TTT, which played over the end of the battle of Helm's Deep.
Equally Sam's wedding could have been cut, which I actually think would have heightened the effect of that final, final end when Sam goes back to his house with his new family.
I believe the extended epilogue is about the sense of passing, and the bittersweet feeling of a successful end and the price paid for it, rather than just a tidying up of loose ends. It's all leading up to the moment in the White Havens when the hobbits realise Frodo has to leave them forever.
Then that final moment with Sam would truly be the sweet moment when we see that life also still goes on. As it is, I fell it is diluted by the other stuff. This feeling may be informed by me not needing to hear Mr Mumbles trying to sing again.
The argument in the extended endings' defence is that it is the end of a trilogy, not just one film, so it needs its space and these characters need their send-offs, but whether it is the end of a four hour film or a ten hour trilogy, I'm actually pretty much ready for them to end, thank you.
The various snoggings can be kept to brief mentions, just so we know that someone, somewhere in Middle Earth actually got some, before moving on to the important stuff, which, after we've had our victories, has to be the stuff about passing.
Charlie: I've always been a big defender of ROTK's endings, because I feel we've been with these characters so long that, personally, I need that kind of extended closures, so much so that you almost don't want it to end. I agree with George that the third act is absolutely flawless. The coronation scene is always my favourite, and paced really well, right from that amazing little ditty from Aragorn, to the proper passionate movie kiss he gives Arwen, to "You bow to no one," which is just an incredibly emotional moment.
And then we have the Grey Havens. And then I cry. Copiously.
Andrew: I'm not going to get you to compromise on any of those moments, am I?
When a moment in LOTR gets you emotionally, it gets you really hard. I'm happy to lose the coronation as, despite it's usefulness in story-ending, it has never moved me, but I imagine someone who has choked up at the 'you bow to no-one' line isn't going to let it go for anything. Equally, how could I watch the TE of FOTR if it meant I couldn't watch that bit with Gimli talking about the three hairs he received as a gift from Galadriel? Or the bit with Frodo and the eagle, which I promise I shall not mention again?
It is a sign of the strength of these films that different parts get to different people but, even more, it is the possessiveness we get over these moments of emotion that tells us how great they are.
These are films that are so full-blooded and open-hearted that, when they speak to you, they can be quite overwhelming. Equally though, when they don't speak to you, they can seem really, really daft.
George: I think that idea of it being a movie kiss is a good summation of what the denouement really is for fans of these films. I mean, let's face it. ROTK is a film made not only as the story capper to the trilogy (obviously) but it plays very much as a "thank you" of sorts for those of us who truly invested emotionally in these films. I'm not saying that makes for proper filmic storytelling, but sometimes "proper" doesn't satisfy the way "indulgent" does. I'm using "indulgent" in a positive sense here, for those in the back row. And like that "movie kiss" that Charlie points out, these films, especially ROTK, display a heightened sense of realism. They're romanticized in a very old fashioned way. Whether that's intentional or just a product of "being too deep into the project that we've lost all sense of rationale" I don't know. And I don't much care, honestly. At a certain point, films such as these cease to be about objectivity and become transcendent, in a variety of ways, to each individual audience member. And like you point out, Andrew, different moments are going to affect them differently.
Charlie: Well, that just about sums those movies up. They are transcendent in the extreme, and these three gigantic discussions illustrate that.
And that's about all we have time for. We hope you've enjoyed reading these, whether they just enforce your opinions, or maybe have placed things in a new light, be it positive or negative. I think most of you will agree that these movies are modern classics, but it'll be interesting to see what we think if we have this discussion in another five, or even ten years time.
Maybe they'll have even made The Hobbit by then.
Read or Post a Comment
<< Home